# Colemak layouts **URL:** \ **Category:** Model 01 Layouts\ **Created:** [November 7, 2016, 5:20am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44 "2016-11-07T05:20:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ivanjonasgomes](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/ivanjonasgomes/32/74_2.png) [@ivanjonasgomes](https://community.keyboard.io/u/ivanjonasgomes)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:58pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/41 "2016-11-10T14:58:45Z")
General question about the Function layer: I looked to see where the QWERTY layout puts them, and they are on the Function layer! That’s great! But then I thought: Does the Function key turn other keys into dead keys? That would make the Function layer annoying. Every key that doesn’t have a Fn-layer symbol should still produce their original symbols. Can someone confirm that it does work like that? ---
**Author:** ![ivanjonasgomes](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/ivanjonasgomes/32/74_2.png) [@ivanjonasgomes](https://community.keyboard.io/u/ivanjonasgomes)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/42 "2016-11-10T14:59:24Z")
Regarding label positioning: In a standard keyboard, there are at most 2 symbols on a key. You know that the Shift key gives you access to the one above. But when you start introducing additional layers, the positioning of the labels on the keys becomes more important to communicate how to access the symbol. We _need_ the letter labels to be on the left side of the keycap and the Function layer labels to be on the right. The symbols would blur together if the base layer and the function layer were placed near each other. Additionally, there are tactile bumps in the center of some keys, so letters probably won’t go well there. ---
**Author:** ![algernon](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/algernon/32/4404_2.png) [@algernon](https://community.keyboard.io/u/algernon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/43 "2016-11-10T15:13:15Z")
> [@ivanjonasgomes](#): > > Every key that doesn’t have a Fn-layer symbol should still produce their original symbols. Can someone confirm that it does work like that? Comparing the [QWERTY](https://github.com/keyboardio/KeyboardioFirmware/blob/master/layouts/qwerty) and [FN](https://github.com/keyboardio/KeyboardioFirmware/blob/master/layouts/generic_fn2) layers in the KeyboardioFirmware sources, it seems to me that very few keys retain their original behaviour (`ZXCV` only, and modifiers). The rest is either some _Fn_ functionality, or a dead key. There are only four dead keys though, compared to the _QWERTY_ layer. All the rest have some _Fn_ functionality, so preserving their original behaviour is not all that useful, in my opinion. If there were more keys without _Fn_ functionality, that would be a different scenario. The _Numpad_ layer for example, preserves the unused keys at their original behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![antevens](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/antevens/32/190_2.png) [@antevens](https://community.keyboard.io/u/antevens)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/44 "2016-11-10T15:32:07Z")
Been thinking a bit more about the layout and the thumb cluster. The CTRL keys have to be where @jesse put them, that’s the only point on the cluster where you can press CTRL with your left hand and reach all the other keys on the left hand side, this is especially true for the bottom row of ZXCV for copy/past/etc, those need to be accessible with the thumb on the CTRL key for both QWERTY and Colemak, I have no idea how this would work for Dvorak … Ideally CTRL/ALT/SHIFT all need to be pressable by one hand at the same time so the other hand can reach the rest of the keyboard for odd shortcuts, etc. It’s highly desirable to be able to reach both Win/Command and ALT/Tab with one key to change the active window, this also needs to be available with SHIFT to allow scrolling backwards through the active application list. ---
**Author:** ![algernon](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/algernon/32/4404_2.png) [@algernon](https://community.keyboard.io/u/algernon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/45 "2016-11-10T15:35:55Z")
> [@antevens](#): > > ZXCV for copy/past/etc, those need to be accessible with the thumb on the CTRL key for both QWERTY and Colemak, I have no idea how this would work for Dvorak … One smart thing I read somewhere is that `Ctrl` also acts as a kind of layer key: pressing control switches the `ZXCV` positions to be just those, as if you had that four keys in QWERTY. This makes the copy&pasting shortcuts remain at the same position, even on Dvorak. Likely not a good default, because the behaviour can be surprising, but something to keep in mind as an option. ---
**Author:** ![antevens](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/antevens/32/190_2.png) [@antevens](https://community.keyboard.io/u/antevens)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/46 "2016-11-10T15:44:27Z")
I’m kinda tempted to programmatically write something that can test and show all of the keyboard shortcuts listed in: > **[Table of keyboard shortcuts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts)** > > In computing, a keyboard shortcut is a sequence or combination of keystrokes on a computer keyboard which invokes commands in software. Most keyboard shortcuts require the user to press a single key or a sequence of keys one after the other. Other keyboard shortcuts require pressing and holding several keys simultaneously (indicated in the tables below by this sign: +). Keyboard shortcuts may depend on the keyboard layout (localization). ---
**Author:** ![Mark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Mark](https://community.keyboard.io/u/Mark)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/47 "2016-11-10T16:05:50Z")
1.) I think I agree about a Backspace on one thumb an space on the other- I was trying to be less radical. the original design has a del. although I think bkspace is more common. 2.) It isn’t so much for programmers, but just an attempt to get all symbol keys on the non-function layer. I just thought the grouping made sense 3.) the order of the thumb arc keys should be re-arrangeable as all of those keys are the same size/shape (see upper post by jesse) 4.) I think they will likely be the same (across layouts) and there is nothing Colemak specific, true, just looking for small variations in placement- however as I look again idk that it’s an improvement ---
**Author:** ![andrewg](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/andrewg/32/43_2.png) [@andrewg](https://community.keyboard.io/u/andrewg)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/48 "2016-11-10T16:45:46Z")
> [@algernon](#): > > One smart thing I read somewhere is that Ctrl also acts as a kind of layer key: pressing control switches the ZXCV positions to be just those, as if you had that four keys in QWERTY. This makes the copy&pasting shortcuts remain at the same position, even on Dvorak. I’ve seen that implemented in a keymap before, but I can’t find the option on my current machine. In any case, this is better implemented in the OS. ---
**Author:** ![algernon](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/algernon/32/4404_2.png) [@algernon](https://community.keyboard.io/u/algernon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/49 "2016-11-10T16:59:56Z")
Possibly. I believe that what I saw was an OSX thingy, too. ---
**Author:** ![andrewg](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/andrewg/32/43_2.png) [@andrewg](https://community.keyboard.io/u/andrewg)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/50 "2016-11-10T17:06:33Z")
> [@algernon](#): > > Possibly. I believe that what I saw was an OSX thingy, too. That’s probably where I saw it. ---
**Author:** ![ivanjonasgomes](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/ivanjonasgomes/32/74_2.png) [@ivanjonasgomes](https://community.keyboard.io/u/ivanjonasgomes)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/51 "2016-11-10T19:50:47Z")
Excellent, thanks for the links! I was going off the labels in the Keyboardio photo on the homepage, but the labels there aren’t complete. The link that Jesse put in his very first post here was key to reading the code. Turns out that this was just a programmer problem that shouldn’t be addressed in this thread. But it did give me an idea… ---
**Author:** ![ivanjonasgomes](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/ivanjonasgomes/32/74_2.png) [@ivanjonasgomes](https://community.keyboard.io/u/ivanjonasgomes)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/52 "2016-11-10T20:28:51Z")
@jesse, can you share your timeline/deadline for coming up with key cap labels? Everyone: I made another KLE template. It has the Colemak alpha keys, and the other keys are as displayed on the photo below. There’s a heart where the butterfly is. [http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/6ca5fb44ff628e5e9b9d075f0e4e58b5](http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/6ca5fb44ff628e5e9b9d075f0e4e58b5) [![](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/keyboard/original/1X/337f2b931543caebd538bcd0ad4ae4f1e252a36e.JPG) ](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/keyboard/original/1X/337f2b931543caebd538bcd0ad4ae4f1e252a36e.JPG) ---
**Author:** ![jesse](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/jesse/32/361_2.png) [@jesse](https://community.keyboard.io/u/jesse)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/53 "2016-11-10T23:40:27Z")
> [@Mark](#): > > 1.) I think I agree about a Backspace on one thumb an space on the other- I was trying to be less radical. the original design has a del. although I think bkspace is more common. The actual key is a backspace. It was labeled with Apple’s wording on the prototypes. ---
**Author:** ![jesse](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/jesse/32/361_2.png) [@jesse](https://community.keyboard.io/u/jesse)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/54 "2016-11-10T23:41:41Z")
> [@ivanjonasgomes](#): > > @jesse, can you share your timeline/deadline for coming up with key cap labels? We’re likely a couple weeks out from the earliest it could possibly be. We expect to do additional runs of keysets after keyboard manufacturing starts. ---
**Author:** ![bluekkis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@bluekkis](https://community.keyboard.io/u/bluekkis)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/55 "2016-11-17T15:00:59Z")
After little bit of thinking I think that this layout mostly ok for a default colemak. However some key placements I’m not quite so sure. For one I really like my ergodox layout with enter on thumb, however I wouldn’t move any of the current thumb keys away either. So I guess place in innermost column is ok. Concerned about reach on this case since I need to twist my wrist to reach similar position on ergodox. Though shaping on keys may help on this regard. For second I would swap led and esc keys. Both positions seem to be on harder to reach places so I would move esc to more familiar place, especially since esc key is needed during use. And actual delete key is needed somewhere, fn+backspace would seem most natural since it is just backward backspace. It’s really hard to say anything without ever using it, so my concerns may be pointless. Best I can do is estimate its feel to ergodox. ---
**Author:** ![andrewg](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/andrewg/32/43_2.png) [@andrewg](https://community.keyboard.io/u/andrewg)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/56 "2016-11-17T17:42:22Z")
> [@bluekkis](#): > > For second I would swap led and esc keys. Both positions seem to be on harder to reach places so I would move esc to more familiar place, especially since esc key is needed during use. The esc key’s beside B is actually quite reachable with the thumb. I moved my kinesis esc key to a similar position and it works really well. > [@](#): > > And actual delete key is needed somewhere, fn+backspace would seem most natural since it is just backward backspace. I think this is uncontroversial. ---
**Author:** ![joel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9bd4f/32.png) [@joel](https://community.keyboard.io/u/joel)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/57 "2017-01-23T01:22:14Z")
+1 for leaving the arrow legends off _(I like my vim arrows on the home row, shifted one to the right - NEIO in Colemak)_ ---
**Author:** ![joel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9bd4f/32.png) [@joel](https://community.keyboard.io/u/joel)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44/58 "2017-01-23T01:41:17Z")
I just noticed that F11 is on the O key. In that case, if the function keys are on the same layer as the arrows, it would make sense to leave them in the default HNEI position (I could always remap F11 to H so I can shift the arrows over, but I think O is a better default). Thanks for everyone’s contributions. I’ve been reading through and there’s lots of great discussion. I’m very excited for a Colemak layout. 😄 [Previous page](https://community.keyboard.io/t/colemak-layouts/44.md?page=2)