# Initial Dvorak Layout **URL:** \ **Category:** Model 01 Layouts\ **Created:** [November 1, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13 "2016-11-01T00:03:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![andrewg](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/andrewg/32/43_2.png) [@andrewg](https://community.keyboard.io/u/andrewg)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2016, 12:35pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/123 "2016-11-23T12:35:47Z")
> [@bjn](#): > > And then I can’t imagine it being a problem for Dvorak typists if it’s not for qwerty. I don’t like it on the qwerty layout either. But the indications seem to be that qwerty isn’t changing, so I’m lowering my sights. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![bjn](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/bjn/32/5337_2.png) [@bjn](https://community.keyboard.io/u/bjn)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/124 "2016-11-23T23:33:41Z")
> [@andrewg](#): > > I have moved the brackets keys to the base layer left of A Base layer vs function layer notwithstanding, one thing I don’t like about this is the idea of typing `{}` or `[]` (common in programming) all with left pinky. I never quite got comfortable with `ls -l` on Dvorak, and this is on the same level – or even a little less comfortable given that it’d be reaching downwards. My vote definitely remains with my suggested positions for these. ---
**Author:** ![Huppie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Huppie](https://community.keyboard.io/u/Huppie)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/125 "2016-11-25T22:43:38Z")
As a fellow programmer this reasoning makes sense. My gut feeling says the position of []{} on @bjn’s layout is probably more comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![algernon](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/algernon/32/4404_2.png) [@algernon](https://community.keyboard.io/u/algernon)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 10:08am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/126 "2016-11-26T10:08:06Z")
How about `[`/`]` on `P`/`Y`, and `{`/`}` on `F`/`G` (on the `Fn` layer, of course)? That way, `[`/`]` won’t be on the far right, with `]` on the pinky, but would be on the left, nicely symmetric. That does conflict with some of the mouse stuff, however… Perhaps `B`/`M` then, and the volume controls and backlighting would move to the inner sides of each half? ---
**Author:** ![boris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/74df32/32.png) [@boris](https://community.keyboard.io/u/boris)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 1:21pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/127 "2016-11-26T13:21:33Z")
Based on @bjn s layout, a suggestion for the Home, End and Delete keys. I moved the []{} keys below the home row and placed the Home and End keys around the Up key. The Delete key as Fn+Backspace. [Layout](http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@_name=Proposed%20default%20Dvorak%20layout%20for%20Model%2001&author=Bart%20Nagel%3B&@_x:3&c=%23b3b3b3&t=%23000000%0A%23808080%0A%23808080%0A%0A%0A%0A%23808080%3B&=%0A3%0AF3%0A%0A%0A%0A%23&_x:10%3B&=%0A8%0AF8%0A%0A%0A%0A*%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:2&t=%230d0d0b%0A%23808080%0A%23808080%0A%0A%0A%0A%23808080%3B&=%0A2%0AF2%0A%0A%0A%0A%2F@&_x:1&t=%23000000%0A%23808080%0A%23808080%0A%0A%0A%0A%23808080%3B&=%0A4%0AF4%0A%0A%0A%0A%24&_x:8%3B&=%0A7%0AF7%0A%0A%0A%0A%2F&&_x:1&t=%230d0d0b%0A%23808080%0A%23808080%0A%0A%0A%0A%23808080%3B&=%0A9%0AF9%0A%0A%0A%0A(%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:5&t=%23000000%0A%23808080%0A%23808080%0A%0A%0A%0A%23808080%3B&=%0A5%0AF5%0A%0A%0A%0A%25&_t=%23000000%0A%23808080&f:6&f2:3&h:1.5%3B&=%0ALED&_x:4&h:1.5%3B&=%0AAny&_t=%23000000%0A%23808080%0A%23808080%0A%0A%0A%0A%23808080&f:3%3B&=%0A6%0AF6%0A%0A%0A%0A%5E%3B&@_y:-0.875&t=%23000000%0A%23808080%3B&=%0AProg&_t=%230d0d0b%0A%23808080%0A%23808080%0A%0A%0A%0A%23808080%3B&=%0A1%0AF1%0A%0A%0A%0A!&_x:14%3B&=%0A0%0AF10%0A%0A%0A%0A)&_t=%23000000%0A%23808080%3B&=%0ANum%3B&@_y:-0.375&x:3&c=%23d9dae0&t=%23000000%3B&=%0A.%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3E&_x:10&t=%23000000%0A%0A%23294bff%3B&=%0AC%0A%E2%AC%86%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:2&t=%230d0d0b%3B&=%0A,%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3C&_x:1&t=%23000000%3B&=%0AP&_x:8&t=%23000000%0A%0A%23294bff%3B&=%0AG%0AHome&_x:1&t=%230d0d0b%0A%0A%23294bff%3B&=%0AR%0AEnd%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:5&t=%23000000%3B&=%0AY&_x:6%3B&=%0AF%3B&@_y:-0.875&t=%230d0d0b%3B&=%0A%60%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A~&=%0A%27%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%22&_x:14%3B&=%0AL&=%0A%2F%2F%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3F%3B&@_y:-0.625&x:6&c=%23b3b3b3&t=%23000000%0A%23808080&h:1.5%3B&=%0ATab&_x:4&h:1.5%3B&=%0AEnter%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:3&c=%23d9dae0&t=%23000000%3B&=%0AE&_x:10&t=%23000000%0A%0A%23294bff%3B&=%0AT%0A%E2%AC%87%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:2&t=%230d0d0b%3B&=%0AO&_x:1&t=%23000000&n:true%3B&=%0AU&_x:8&t=%23000000%0A%0A%23294bff&n:true%3B&=%0AH%0A%E2%AC%85&_x:1&t=%230d0d0b%0A%0A%23294bff%3B&=%0AN%0A%E2%9E%A1%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:5&t=%23000000%3B&=%0AI&_x:6%3B&=%0AD%3B&@_y:-0.875&t=%230d0d0b%3B&=%0A%2F=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A+&=%0AA&_x:14&t=%230d0d0b%0A%0A%23294bff%3B&=%0AS%0AF11&=%0A-%0AF12%0A%0A%0A%0A%2F_%3B&@_y:-0.375&x:3&t=%23000000%3B&=%0AJ&_x:10&t=%23000000%0A%0A%23294bff%3B&=%0AW%0A%7D%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:2&t=%230d0d0b%3B&=%0AQ&_x:1&t=%23000000%3B&=%0AK&_x:8&t=%23000000%0A%0A294bff%3B&=%0AM%0A%7B&_x:1&t=%230d0d0b%0A%0A%23294bff%3B&=%0AV%0A%5B%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:5&t=%23000000%3B&=%0AX&_c=%23b3b3b3&t=%23000000%0A%23808080%3B&=%0AEsc&_x:4%3B&=%0ABfly&_c=%23d9dae0&t=%23000000%3B&=%0AB%3B&@_y:-0.875&t=%23000000%0A%0A%23294bff%3B&=%0APgDn%0APgUp&_t=%230d0d0b%3B&=%0A%2F%3B%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%2F:&_x:14&t=%230d0d0b%0A%0A%23294bff%3B&=%0AZ%0A%5D&_t=%23000000%3B&=%0A%5C%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%7C%3B&@_r:15&rx:6.5&ry:4.25&y:0.5&x:-2&c=%23b3b3b3&t=%23000000%0A%23808080%3B&=%0ACtrl%3B&@_r:20&y:-1&x:-0.75&t=%23000000%0A%23808080%0A%23808080%3B&=%0ABkspc%0ADel%3B&@_y:0.75&x:-0.5&t=%23808080&a:7&w:1.25&h:1.25%3B&=Fn%3B&@_r:25&y:-2.75&x:0.5&t=%23000000%0A%23808080&a:4%3B&=%0ACmd%3B&@_r:30&y:-1&x:1.75%3B&=%0AShift%3B&@_r:-30&y:1.3499999999999996&x:1.25%3B&=%0AShift%3B&@_r:-25&y:-1.25&x:2.75%3B&=%0AAlt%3B&@_r:-20&y:-1.3499999999999996&x:4.25%3B&=%0ASpace%3B&@_y:0.6500000000000004&x:3.5&t=%23808080&a:7&w:1.25&h:1.25%3B&=Fn%3B&@_r:-15&y:-3.1500000000000004&x:5.75&t=%23000000%0A%23808080&a:4%3B&=%0ACtrl) ![](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/keyboard/original/1X/a0f79b963d5173949196e9eddf2ed18cca279c09.png) In the same way is the Delete key I would myself probable prefer the Enter key to be on Fn+Space. (I also use hjkl keys on the Dvorak layout for vim movement 🙂) Edit: Home, End and Delete keys have already been suggested this way (sorry) I like it. So my suggestion here is about the {}[] placement. Edit2: I also like @andrewg s proposal for the Page keys on the F and G keys. ---
**Author:** ![bjn](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/bjn/32/5337_2.png) [@bjn](https://community.keyboard.io/u/bjn)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/128 "2016-11-28T20:53:40Z")
> [@algernon](#): > > How about [/]onP/Y, and {/}onF/G (on the Fn layer, of course)? > > That way, [/]won’t be on the far right, with] on the pinky, but would be on the left, nicely symmetric. That does conflict with some of the mouse stuff, however… I think it’s a valid idea, but as you say it will conflict with some mouse stuff, and I really think we should be aiming to keep as much of the function layer in common with the default qwerty layout as possible. I really wish we could find out whether the plans for that have changed at all in light of recent discussion, so we might have more of a guideline. If the default qwerty layout were to go in a way like this, I’d be all for it on the Dvorak one too. Incidentally, I personally don’t mind using my pinkies for stuff, just as long as I don’t have to use the same pinky for two different keys in sequence too often. ---
**Author:** ![bjn](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/bjn/32/5337_2.png) [@bjn](https://community.keyboard.io/u/bjn)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/129 "2016-11-28T21:01:00Z")
Pretty much the same response as I had to algernon. Having the brackets/braces on mwvz seems totally reasonable to me, but I’m only 100% behind it if that’s also the direction the default qwerty layout goes. Honestly I don’t think we can really go further (at least I can’t with my ideals) until we know more about how qwerty is going to end up. Just for discussion, I’m not sure anybody has really commented here on my suggestion of the braces on FG and brackets on RL (as in [number 108 above](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/108)) – is it just that you think “home” and “end” are better clustered around there? ---
**Author:** ![pnunn](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/pnunn/32/24_2.png) [@pnunn](https://community.keyboard.io/u/pnunn)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/130 "2016-11-28T23:28:18Z")
I know this is probably off topic, but I’ve just read through the whole layout discussion again and I’m struggling to work out what the “Any” key is meant to do. What is the intention of a key marked Any? ---
**Author:** ![fishheadsoup](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/fishheadsoup/32/161_2.png) [@fishheadsoup](https://community.keyboard.io/u/fishheadsoup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/131 "2016-11-28T23:31:24Z")
@pnunn I think it’s a throwback to the days when you installed a program and the installation wizard asks you to hit “any” key to continue. Its kind of a stab at the humorous situation when IT professionals are asked to help troubleshoot something when the customer says, I can’t find the “any” key, a key actually labeled “any” as opposed to hitting _ANY_ key (enter, spacebar, etc.) So J+K put in an ANY key to have it be whatever you want - pot of gold, unicorns, rainbows, pink bunnies, or baggy pants… its all good. Me personally, I’m gonna have it order ice cream from Amazon. ---
**Author:** ![pnunn](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/pnunn/32/24_2.png) [@pnunn](https://community.keyboard.io/u/pnunn)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/132 "2016-11-28T23:38:24Z")
Right… I wondered if that was the intention but hoped it may have had some more functional basis 😄 Guess I’ll have to think up a use for it, maybe fire off all my invoices in one hit or something. Thanks for that @fisheadsoup. ---
**Author:** ![jesse](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/jesse/32/361_2.png) [@jesse](https://community.keyboard.io/u/jesse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/133 "2016-11-28T23:42:50Z")
@fishheadsoup has the “meaning” of the Any key correct, though the rationale is worth mentioning again: It’s a key that is a pretty serious reach for most typists. We don’t want to map it to something important on a default layout, so decided to leave it open for customization. ---
**Author:** ![pnunn](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/pnunn/32/24_2.png) [@pnunn](https://community.keyboard.io/u/pnunn)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/134 "2016-11-28T23:52:33Z")
Thanks @jesse. I’ve been seeing it on the layout for ages and it only just dawned on me that I didn’t know why it was there. ---
**Author:** ![jesse](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/jesse/32/361_2.png) [@jesse](https://community.keyboard.io/u/jesse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/135 "2016-11-28T23:54:30Z")
@pnunn - Yeah - There’s a bunch of stuff that we’ve never written down systematically. We’re trying to get better about that, though me posting this stuff here is certainly not good enough yet 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![merlin](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/merlin/32/3416_2.png) [@merlin](https://community.keyboard.io/u/merlin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/136 "2016-11-29T01:13:30Z")
I bought a Gateway 2000 486DX full-sized tower machine in 1991 that came with a keyboard with an “Any” key. I don’t remember what they used it for, but it definitely had some purpose. ---
**Author:** ![bjn](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/bjn/32/5337_2.png) [@bjn](https://community.keyboard.io/u/bjn)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/137 "2016-11-29T02:31:49Z")
Perhaps worth mentioning that the “any” key isn’t Dvorak-specific in any way. It’s to be printed on the default qwerty layout. ---
**Author:** ![Huppie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Huppie](https://community.keyboard.io/u/Huppie)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/138 "2016-11-29T20:19:04Z")
> [@bjn](#): > > Just for discussion, I’m not sure anybody has really commented here on my suggestion of the braces on FG and brackets on RL (as in number 108 above) – is it just that you think “home” and “end” are better clustered around there? I was talking about this positioning when I said I think your layout is more comfortable. In other words: I like it! ---
**Author:** ![bjn](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/bjn/32/5337_2.png) [@bjn](https://community.keyboard.io/u/bjn)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/139 "2016-11-30T01:27:34Z")
Ah, yes, sorry. However, over in the Qwerty thread where I asked if this could be a default/recommendation across the board: > [@Default qwerty layout and how it relates to alternate layouts](https://community.keyboard.io/t/default-qwerty-layout-and-how-it-relates-to-alternate-layouts/128/99): > > I had the brackets shifted one to the left in an earlier prototype and found it to be a miserable experience. Right now, they’re aligned with the home columns. That’s where they’re getting printed on the QWERTY keycaps and positioned in the shipping firmware. If folks don’t want them printed on the other layouts, I could be sold on that. The word “miserable” is somewhat worrying, and makes me want to backpedal on that idea. If we keep the cursors where I suggested (right hand home position, i.e. CHTN), brackets and braces could use MWVZ as @boris suggested: ![](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/keyboard/original/1X/9abd3cbf1dcedd89830b8e5ac71d728c5c72542d.png) or maybe both sets on the right hand ring and pinkie but different rows like RLVZ: ![](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/keyboard/original/1X/a360c875f43f966fc9e1b2024ee1052c6e0b4dc9.png) or maybe mirrored on the hands like ',RL: ![](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/uploads/keyboard/original/1X/68eb51f849f7be19170b509081d236d56ed17bd0.png) Any of these are in my opinion at least somewhat sane. While I like the mirroring in the third one in theory, it’s unfortunate that the right brace in that arrangement would be the same key as the _left_ angle bracket (on the comma key). So I think I like the other two more than that. ---
**Author:** ![james.nvc](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/james.nvc/32/54_2.png) [@james.nvc](https://community.keyboard.io/u/james.nvc)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/140 "2016-11-30T02:53:40Z")
Of those three options, I think I like the third the best, with the mirrored braces & brackets. It seems to me that I’d rather reach up than crunch my hand down to hit keys and, while these are probably not typed terrible often in prose, they come up fairly frequently when coding. I do appreciate though that optimizing for coding is probably not the goal (although, if any profession is more likely to purchase a fancy keyboard…). ---
**Author:** ![antevens](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/antevens/32/190_2.png) [@antevens](https://community.keyboard.io/u/antevens)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/141 "2016-11-30T02:57:16Z")
One thing to keep in mind with closing braces and brackets for programming purposes is that they are very frequently followed by enter/return so the combination should ideally be easy. ---
**Author:** ![bjn](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex031/user_avatar/community.keyboard.io/bjn/32/5337_2.png) [@bjn](https://community.keyboard.io/u/bjn)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13/142 "2016-11-30T03:09:53Z")
It’s been a while since I used the prototype but I don’t imagine any of the above followed by an enter key would be tricky. [Previous page](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13.md?page=6) [Next page](https://community.keyboard.io/t/initial-dvorak-layout/13.md?page=8)