Speed. I think it would be faster to use a thumb for enter rather than a finger. I don’t think it really matters to be honest. Its going to take some re-training to use the keyboard anyway as I touch type DVORAK on a QWERTY labeled keyboard now.
Got it! Based on that, I’d probably recommend thinking about a location on the thumb arc for your personal layout, rather than the palm key. One thing I’d done for a while was to make the chord of palm-space into Enter. It was quick and comfortable, but I worry about it a “default” setting because it’s a little bit trickier to get used to.
Actually, now that I look at it a bit closer, I guess the Enter key where you have it is already on the thumb isn’t it? Probably already got it nailed.
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Default Enter is actually an index finger key. I’ve found it to be quick and comfortable, but it’s certainly not the only place one could put it.
Arley’s SVG is for his proposed Colemak layout, but will give you a sense on that one.
http://arleym.com/keyboardio/#jp-carousel-3333
Other than space and backspace, we’ve tried to keep the thumbs for keys that you’ll be chording with others on a regular basis. That was the very first design decision as I started work on the hardware layout. It doesn’t mean I wasn’t wrong, but is an important bit of backstory 
OK, that makes sense. Will be VERY interesting to see how long it takes to get the hang of and if it buggers up my touch typing on QWERTY layouts 
Really looking forward to getting hold of one.
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My understanding is that the arrow keys and brackets are accessed by holding Fn, right?
@kaia my thoughts on your layout: I think this is pretty good. I’ve swapped some keys to better match my own dvorak layout on the Kinesis Advantage – I moved some symbols to places I like them better. I also changed the thumb section to be closer to the Kinesis, in particular adding Delete. And I expect to use shift far more than Fn, so making that the palms.
I don’t know if you had plans for Home and End, but I use them all the time along with PgUp and PgDown buttons, and I don’t love those on the left side. So I moved them to Fn keys on the right below the arrow keys. I think Tab and Esc are better placed on the left pinkies so that’s what I did; those keys are moved from the stretch index fingers.
And I put mouse nav and clicking on esdf instead of wasd, which is much more comfortable on the kinesis and I’d expect more comfortable on this keyboard too.
Here’s my proposed Dvorak layout:
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That’s correct, at least by default.
I believe num lock key is less frequently used than the (|\ ) while programmig. What do you guys think?
@lincolnq 
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So I’ve been using a modified dvorak layout on an ergodox for nearly two years now.
I iterated on algernon’s layout here.
Some notes on my bias:
- I’m a heavy vim user, so I really don’t get the point of the “home, end, page up, or page down” buttons
- Escape is an an inviolable key (yes I know there are other options, but they don’t translate out side of vim, e.g. readline, ipython, other “vi-like” bindings); I would however consider swapping it and tab, to bring to the “inner circle”
- As a full time programmer, I’ve really come to like the braces on inner index fingers
- I don’t know what the “any” key or “butterfly” key is for, so I’m punting them to the “I don’t care” periphery
I have always felt mildly guilty about not better utilizing the thumb clusters on my dox layout. For the keyboard.io, I suspect that I may try moving the Ret/Tab, Space/Bspc pairs onto the thumb clusters, de-prioritizing the alt/cmd keys; or generally experimenting with making them not wholly symmetrical/redundant.
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very interesting - some great ideas. will take some and smoosh them with my own current layout
I currently have the brackets and parens on R1C6 / R1C9 (I think, I’m working from an ErgoDox layout, where that column is a bit different), and it is a fantastic position for the brackets, and the parens. One of the best things I ever did to my layout was to move them there. I’m fairly sure they would be equally convenient on R0C6 / R0C9 too. Highly recommended.
Having one of the Fns be Enter would mean that not only the Dvorak layer, but the others will have to change too, otherwise it becomes next to impossible to input some of the symbols: for example, if you make the right Fn an Enter, then reaching the function key row on the top to input, say, F2, while holding the Fn key with your palm would require a stretch waaay too big and uncomfortable. Similar things happen if you use the other palm keys as Enter.
Putting it on the thumb arc, however, is a bit easier, but then you have to move a modifier elsewhere. Thankfully, there are already two Control keys, so we may be able to replace one of them. But then, some chords may require an uncomfortable stretch… That is solvable with one-shot modifiers (or double-use keys such as Z/Ctrl), but that would be yet another thing to get used to.
Mind you, having used an ErgoDox for a while now, I feel that Enter is very, very convenient to have near Space, on the thumb cluster (or arc, in case of the Model 01). But moving it there comes at a cost…
And since we are sharing even wild ideas, that gives me enough comfort to mention the layout I will be going with (for the record, I will not be using Dvorak keycaps, but likely Runes, Blanks or similar):
(Source on KLE)
All of the modifiers here are one-shot, and so are the palm keys: they remain active until another key is pressed, and deactivate after. This makes chording much easier, but it’s not easy to get used to. Other changes compared to a traditional Dvorak layout include:
- I moved
:to the thumb arc, because that is a symbol I use fairly often, and hated it on the pinky. Tabis on the home row, because that felt more convenient, and allowed me to have~onR1C0.- I don’t have mouse keys, because I didn’t find them comfortable on the ErgoDox. But that may be due to the firmware, the Model 01 mousekeys looked better, when I read the code, so mouse keys I may reconsider.
-I moved to the thumb arc too, because like:, it is a symbol I use often, and I had some spare space there anyway.CtrlandAltI have on the thumb cluster on the ErgoDox, but found that I use them rarely, so moved them to an index-finger position instead, to have space on the thumb arc for other keys.- The
R0C6/R0C9keys are macros. R1C6/R1C9are double-use keys: tapped twice, they input(/), respectively. Tapped once, they input[/]or{/}depending on being shifted or not.
I think those are the major changes… do note that my two palm keys lead to different layers, and apart from the function key row, all functionality the layer has is on the other side of the keyboard, to make it easy to hold the palm key, without having to chord anything. For the function row, I’ll use the one-shot behaviour of the palm key, to avoid holding it for the duration.
These are… very personal things, mind you. But when trying to come up with a set of labels, and a default Dvorak layout, it may be worth seeing where that can lead. Perhaps someone here will find something useful in my layout, that helps desiging the legends. 
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Jesse, I think your comment about the ability to chord Shift with the alternate hand is very important. Courses to train professional typists have always stressed the efficiency of shifting with the opposite hand.
With my Kinesis Advantage, I remapped all of my chording keys in a symmetrical arrangement for my thumbs (clockwise for the right thumb, and counter-clockwise for the left thumb: shift, option/alt, control, command). This lets me always cross-chord, and makes chord-mashing very convenient.
In that event, space, backspace, return, enter, and forward-delete on the Model 01, well, maybe column 6 and column 9? I’ll think about this.
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Looking forward to contributing here. I’ve been typing on Dvorak keyboards since the late 1990s and am as big a champion for the layout as there ever was
I think one important thing to keep in mind is that the 01 is already so innovative that the layouts should be the thing that is more traditional. That will, I think, draw more people into the 01’s sphere - hey, what a radical setup, but hey, look, the letters are where I’m used to them being, so it won’t take me long to adjust to the 01 at all.
I’ll work up a layout and post it. Thanks again for the opportunity to contribute.
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I like the way Kaia’s Dvorak layout looks; as prof.wes says, I think it’s reasonable to have a fairly conservative implementation of Dvorak off the bat, since the physical layout is so different.
The one tweak that I really like is having the control keys act as escape when tapped and the left & right shifts act as left & right parentheses when tapped, but that is probably the sort of thing that should not be in a default layout.
For what its worth, the default layout of the ErgoDox EZ has double-use keys for Z/Ctrl, ESC/Ctrl and a number of others. So at least some of the things you described are already defaults on at least one other keyboard, one that has sold a few thousand units. I wouldn’t shy away from using such features on a default layout.
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I’m a little worried about how ad-hoc the layout discussion is. Dvorak is one thing, as it is merely a rearrangement of the same keycodes as Qwerty and can therefore be remapped in the keyboard itself. But what if I want to temporarily switch to a French mapping? Or a Hungarian one? And that’s not even considering non-latin charsets…
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Confirmed Dvorak user here - I’ve been using it for about 12 years on a few Kinesis Advantage ergonomic keyboards (Standard US Dvorak layout)
Dvorak on Kinesis
I think there may be a split between programmer and ‘normal’ usage - maybe even worth two standard layout options? I have a 25 year habit of using escape in vi on the top left, so that is essential. Programmers also use weird brackets and symbols far more than ‘vanilla’ users.
One thing I don’t like is the arrow keys being 'shift’ed. They get used an awful lot, and repeatedly - sticky shift keys are not really going to work with them. The kinesis has split keys - up/down on one side and left/right on the other. Maybe we can work them in somewhere?
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I’m a dvorak kinesis user and i have the escape key mapped to the left thumb Home key. It only took a week or so to get used to (and is superior to the rubber kinesis escape).
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I believe we are talking about the labels on the keycaps here, for the most part. French, Hungarian, and non-Latin input is something doable (since the keyboard is fully programmable), but I’m not sure that the Dvorak caps should reflect that, too. We’d end up with endless variation then.
Something that works for most would be best. Both @kaia’s and my first proposal was aiming at being something like traditional Dvorak, with mods and some special keys in the same position as on the Model 01’s QWERTY layout. The colored layout I posted earlier deviates from that a lot, and it may not have been the best idea to post it - apologies!
As an example, the Kinesis Advantage has dual QWERTY/Dvorak legends, and they kept a lot of the special keys the same between the two:
This is a good goal to keep in mind, I suppose.
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I think one important thing to keep in mind is that the 01 is already so innovative that the layouts should be the thing that is more traditional …trunc…, so it won’t take me long to adjust to the 01 at all.
I disagree and here’s why. About 6 years ago a I decided to make the switch from qwerty to dvorak, picked up a blank Das Keyboard, and went cold turkey. It was a steep learning curve and a significant investment at the time in terms of lost productivity and frustration, but I am happy with the end result.
Looking at the physical layout of the Keybordario, no matter what ends up happening with the key mapping, it’s going to be another big investment into retraining and getting things right. So why stick with a “legacy” idea of a layout when there is a new possibility of improved efficiency and ergonomics, for the same investment in retraining energy?
Since Dvorak itself was allegedly designed to improve the typing experience, accuracy, and speed based on research into how humans type and what’s faster and more comfortable, rather than what had typically been more convenient layouts from a production point of view, it’s almost sacrilegious to go against that spirit and try to shoe-horn the old mapping born from straight rows of keys in grids into a completely new form factor. It’s not just another ergonomic keyboard, and it’s not just another rehashed key mapping… Instead, Dvorak++, as made possible by Keybordario.
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