Default qwerty layout and how it relates to alternate layouts

There’s a dedicated row of numbers on the default layer, so you can access your numbers any time.

A keypad on the right hand will conflict with the arrows currently suggested. A numpad can’t coexist with them.

What, then, would you say is the purpose of the Num key?

No, I don’t believe that to be a real concern. I originally had it the way you describe and ended up reversing it after typing on it for about three months.

The keys at the far end of the thumb arcs are the keys duplicated on both sides. That means that when you’re reaching to chord with Shift or Control, you have the option of using the other hand.

This is another place where programmers are different than many “normal” typists. A measurable percentage of the presales support inquiries we get ask specifically about a numpad.

The arrows are on the Fn layer, no? Or did I miss something?

Just to be clear, I’m not advocating we skip the numpad (I use it rather a lot in fact) but what I’m saying is that a numpad layer that blocks/disables the other characters is very much less useful than a numpad layer which can be activated by an easily accessible push button rather than a toggle button.

Meaning one would have to chord to get to numpad?

Part of my calculus is that the buttons in the top corners are too much of a stretch to be sane as ‘regular’ keys.

I agree that the top corners are not sane regular keys and probably won’t be touch typed, that’s what I’m worried about because the primary use of numpad would be in something like MS Excel.

In order to enter a single number with the numpad you have to move your hand up to the corner, enable the numpad layer, type the number on the numpad and again move your hand up to the corner. It’s rare for data entry to only contain numbers so people would be continuously enabling/disabling the numpad unlike regular keyboards where the numlock key is typically left on. Interestingly the left hand is also typically not used much while entering numbers on the numpad so I don’t think there would be much of a penalty for putting a mod on the left hand that would need to be held down while entering data on the numpad.

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There are a lot of folks who enter a lot of numbers. (Folks who live in excel. It’s common for them to enter columns and columns of numbers at a stretch.)

What are you suggesting that key’s default behavior be?

Here is the scenario:

You are in Excel, you want to enter a number and then move to the row below and enter another number.

  1. Move your hand up to the numlock key which is the top right and can’t be easily touch typed
  2. Enter your number on the numpad
  3. Move your hand again up to the numlock key to disable it
  4. Now you can use the arrow key to move focus down to the row below

You have to repeat that pattern for every row of data you want to enter with a numlock toggle key and the current layout.

I’m suggesting that rather than have a toggle style numlock key that can’t be easily touch typed there should be a way to activate the numpad using the left hand and a single key press.

Oh, no. When you’re in the numpad layer, function still gets you working arrows.

Do you also get the rest of the keyboard, like if you need to press enter or alphabetical characters?

It works like an embedded numpad, just like on a laptop keyboard. Keys that aren’t explicitly part of the numpad layout have their normal meanings.

I think personally I would still prefer enabling it with a mod on my left hand but I might very well be in the minority with that.

Understood. And I may well live to regret my design :wink: In testing, it’s worked out pretty well and hasn’t been one of the things I’ve been worried about.

The relief I cling to is the programmability of the keyboardio. I personally will make it work like Antonia suggests, with a Numpad-enabling modifier on the left palm key. But a traditional Num key on the top-right would be fine for regular typists. The only question left in my mind is: do we print the arrow key labels, or the numpad labels, or both?

For QWERTY, we’re printing arrows. Much more and it gets too cluttered.

I’m with you.

I was assuming the numpad was on the Fn layer. If you need arrows in numpad mode, do people not use numlock toggle and the standard numpad arrows? Saves moving your hand…

I’ve been using an Atreus, which uses an embedded numpad with momentary function key access. It’s fast and fluid, with no hand position changes necessary to get in and out of number mode.

There are occasional moments where I wish I had a lock instead - data entry in spreadsheets is a good example. But most of the time, numbers via modifiers is my preferred access to them.

Then again, I may be making a crazy Atreus compatibility firmware for this thing so my travel keyboard and desk keyboard share convention.

Would it be useful if, say, holding down both Fn buttons did Fn-lock?

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I think that’s a great idea.

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